Comments on ThreeSeven: The Swine, The Vax, and the Angry.

Amy - I did not use the word idiot that I can see,...

2009-11-12T16:54:17.984-05:00

Amy - I did not use the word idiot that I can see, and the word moron was more self-referential than anything, if you read the context.

And again, if you read the context: my rant is about people who rely on bad sources, like the Jenny McCarthys and the youtubes of the world - or, even, themselves if they make a decision based on sudden self smarting, as it were - reading two or three articles on the internet does not an expert make. If you feel my rant is against people who choose not to vax, you are free to interpret it that way, of course, but that was not my objective, nor do I believe my words make it appear that way.

I believe vaccines work. I believe they save lives. And I believe that anyone who chooses not to vax based on faulty information like that which Jenny McCarthy pushes is making a bad decision. I am all for critical thinking and I encourage people to do their own research. I am fully against lies and misinformation and misconceptions and agendas.

I am very sorry about your father. I, too, have lost people due to medical failures. But that doesn't mean I believe that the entire medical system is flawed - it is simply fallible, as is anything.

My point is that thousands of people have made the...

2009-11-12T15:51:56.819-05:00

My point is that thousands of people have made their decision based on hype. But because their hype-based decision TO VAX lines up with your research-based decision TO VAX, they seem to be excluded from your rant about idiots and morons (your words).

You rant about people not vaccinating based on YouTube and other less than reliable sources, yet your real issue is clearly with people who chose not to vax. You feel that to not vax is idiotic and implies reliance on misinformation. Because apparently no fact/science based resource would ever recommend not vaccinating.

As someone who lost her father last year because we believed the science/fact/medical community-based info, I now chose to not believe that going to school and getting an MD makes you a trust worthy source of information. It seems your faith in the medical profession has never been shaken. Lucky you. Ignorance is bliss.

(I'm not referring to the vax question here, but rather people's faith in modern medicine.)

Amy - where am I saying I'm getting the vax based ...

2009-11-12T13:06:59.019-05:00

Amy - where am I saying I'm getting the vax based on misinformation and fear mongering by the media?

There have been several confirmed H1N1 deaths of children in Ontario. That isn't up for debate.

I decided to get the vax based on science, on recommendations by medical and health professionals, those who have been extensively educated and know what they're talking about, not based on hype.

I think that basing your decision to vax on misinf...

2009-11-12T12:55:48.843-05:00

I think that basing your decision to vax on misinformation and fear-mongering by the media is THE SAME as basing it on YouTube and Jenny McCarthy.

You can't excuse parents for getting the vax based on unconfirmed deaths and H1N1 hysteria and then lambaste those parents who chose not to vaccinate based on anti-vax hysteria.

Same shit, different pile.

You seem to be promoting a double-standard.

The media hysteria and fearmongering makes me tire...

2009-11-09T12:43:47.367-05:00

The media hysteria and fearmongering makes me tired. You take your life in your hands every time you jump in a car or get on a plane. Yet nobody gives it a second thought.

I'm not afraid of the vaccine. I'm not afraid of the flu (H1N1 or the other 'nameless' ones). Mostly I'm afraid of lost income from missing work if I'm sick or my kids are sick.

(I'm more afraid of laser vision correction than H1N1. Logical? Probably not.)

I'll get the vax (I'm in BC, they say we'll have enough) for myself and my kids if the opportunity presents itself and we haven't contracted the virus in the meantime.

I haven't read the other comments, BUT: I do have...

2009-11-05T19:28:00.705-05:00

I haven't read the other comments, BUT:

I do have misgivings about this vaccine, and I am not anti-vax in general. What scares me about this vaccine is that the date for release was set before the vaccine was even developed. Which means the testing was done with an end-date in mind, and the race was on and I don't think anyone would have dared to stop that locomotive from running it's tracks, on-time and on-budget, if they had found something that looked just a little wrong.

I started this thing out leaning towards not vaxing, for this flu, and now I'm waiting for my turn to do it. I am more scared now of the flu than I am of the vax, but I don't think it's fair to blast everyone with misgivings as being little lambs being led to Jenny MacArthy's slaughter (I completely agree with you about that whole line of thinking).

I wrote a post on my own blog about this, which better explains my feelings, during a time when the paranoia was (slightly) lower.

Oh, and one of the factors leading me to change my mind? My great-uncle WAS alive during 1918 (he will be 102 this December), and he does remember what it was like. That said, I don't think you can compare the 2 outbreaks straight across: we've come miles in terms of treatment and hygiene since then, but I do understand and basically agree with your sentiment that horrible diseases have been essentially eradicated BECAUSE of vaccines - they are not inherently bad.

I've been doing some reading; apparently the antib...

2009-11-05T13:20:57.889-05:00

I've been doing some reading; apparently the antibodies don't pass through breastmilk well. I'd love to hear what your doctor said and see if it jives with that and with what my doctor will say on Monday.

We're now leaning towards getting her a shot in a couple of weeks and possibly postponing her 6 months vaxes.

Also, the Canadian Parents message board has a place where you can post questions about H1N1 and an expert answers them every week. He's a professor of pediatrics at Dalhousie. This is the link to the first set of answers: http://www.canadianparents.com/article/h1n1-qanda

ps - a side benefit of it all: Showing up to work ...

2009-11-04T17:49:07.798-05:00

ps - a side benefit of it all: Showing up to work sick has lost it's cache. No more sitting beside me in meetings snot-nosed and hacking up a lung. Bliss!

Shan - yes, leadership at it's best! ugh! And ag...

2009-11-04T17:42:11.533-05:00

Shan - yes, leadership at it's best! ugh!

And agreed, you certainly were clear about the focus of your rant...but you did conclude that getting a vaccination is the correct course of action (get a jab already).

I question how many of those who choose to get a vax find their information from rumours or Fox News. Their decision to get a vaccine is hardly more responsible or informed than those who rely on youtube videos.

I empathize with people who are suspicious of mainstream medicine, given accounts the pharmaceutical industry's influence on medical research, published findings and professionals.

Frankly, I consider myself well-informed and have done my due diligence on the pros and cons of the vaccination. My only conclusion is that fearmongering from both sides is over the top.

@mags - one more thing about the vax clinics. I lo...

2009-11-04T16:19:54.324-05:00

@mags - one more thing about the vax clinics. I love how health canada is saying that there will be enough vax to get everyone who wants a jab done by Christmas. Christmas. When the flu wave is meant to be over anyway. V. helpful.

I was hoping it was tongue in cheek. We agree o...

2009-11-04T15:58:21.089-05:00

I was hoping it was tongue in cheek.

We agree on the main thing which is to get quality information before making such an important decision.

Thank you for listening to my comments and responding!

Mags - you're not hearing it from me. My beef is ...

2009-11-04T15:37:44.628-05:00

Mags - you're not hearing it from me. My beef is with those who are not vaccinating based on junk science, on lies and fears. The decision to vax or not vax is a personal one - but if people are deciding not to based on bad information that doesn't hold up to scrutiny, and they spread that information, you bet that makes me angry. The issues - big issues - with the vax rollout, including the fact that they didn't enforce their own high risk rules, is another post entirely.

Angelina - if you're getting information from the CDC and epidemiologists, I have no argument with you. If you're getting your information from Jenny McCarthy and mothering.com and whale.to and the like, then we have an issue. My reference to putting a tape of an ill child on youtube was somewhat tongue in cheek, and yet - I know of people who are refusing the vax based on youtube fearmongering videos. If that's the source they choose to believe, shouldn't the reality be available there too?

The misinformation is being spread by people on bo...

2009-11-04T14:47:53.361-05:00

The misinformation is being spread by people on both sides of the issue.

I think that anyone who has bothered to read information/articles put out by both sides of the fence from good resources (such as the CDC and the epidemiologists- who don't all agree with each other though they're all experts) is doing a great job as a citizen and as a parent regardless of what they ultimately decide to do.

Please say you don't really wish that parents of unvaccinated children in ICU from flu complications video tape their sick children to hold up as an example of how right you believe you are. If your own children ended up in ICU from flu complications would you hold them up as an example of how sometimes the vaccinations don't protect children from getting deathly sick?

I wouldn't wish such a thing of you.

Living in Alberta, unless I'm a hockey player, the...

2009-11-04T14:17:50.840-05:00

Living in Alberta, unless I'm a hockey player, the option doesn't currently exist.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/story/2009/11/03/calgary-flames-h1n1-swine-flu-shot.html?ref=rss

Whether or not I believe in vaccines it is irrelevant. When we had access, people were shoving other people out of line to jump the queue and take care of themselves.

A homeless shelter offered the vaccine to our most vulnerable population. Adults left the suburbs dressed in sweats and got in line in front of people sleeping in alleys.

Today? Noone in the province has access to the vaccine. We're out.

I'm not going to argue whether or not the vaccination works, or whether or not I have proper information about what is getting jabbed in my arm.

I'm healthy, have the means to take care of myself, and was (and still am) willing to wait for those who are more vulnerable than I am.

No, I didn't in line for the vaccine. I'm hearing words tossed around for those 'like me': idiocy, selfishness, misinformed.

Really?

Chantal - the decision is hardest, probably, for t...

2009-11-04T10:54:29.882-05:00

Chantal - the decision is hardest, probably, for the pregnant woman. To me, it's because you really don't know what's happening in there at that very second - could the part of her brain responsible for higher reasoning be forming RIGHTNOW? And yet, as a pregnant woman, your level of risk of getting very sick or dying from this bug is the highest. It's so hard to go in to self-preservation mode when everything in your body and soul is in baby-preservation mode.

Rae - the lines and the way the vax is being rolled out is really tough, yes. Leaving those who are most at risk to wait 4-5-6 hours outside in the cold and rain makes no sense. There could - and should - have been better alternatives to getting people vaxxed. I think the late turning of the tide (ie the deaths of the two children) made a lot more people come out than had previously been planning to, but still it doesn't excuse leaving people outside in the cold that long. Sigh.

Michelle - the article in Wired should be required reading for everyone. Everyone. For anyone who hasn't read it, here's the link: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2009/10/ff_waronscience

Nicole - we're getting our baby her four month jabs today, and I'm asking my doc about the flu immunity via breastmilk then - I'll let you know what he says. All's I know is, I've had a cold for two weeks now and she's not sick yet. Hallelujiah.

Laurie - it sounds like you're running in to some nurses who are far on the other side of the equation, who think that medicine is infallible. It isn't. They, too, haven't read the studies, most likely - the studies that say that rarely, serious side effects can happen. And in cases like yours, that's just as damaging as the anti-vax rhetoric.

Angelina - it's already a fight. It's a fight that's been started by the people who spread misinformation, and fear, and lies. People who are saying that vaccines are poison and that we don't need them and they don't work. Simply by getting the vaccine, you are making your immune system "work" and get stronger (ie. produce antibodies that protect you). In getting the vax, you just don't have to go through a week of fever and coughing and body aches and risk of serious complications to get there. Are vaxxes perfect? No. Do they save lives every single day? Yes. Yes. Yes. A thousand times yes.

I am not against all vaccines. My child is vaccin...

2009-11-03T19:29:39.827-05:00

I am not against all vaccines. My child is vaccinated against all those diseases that one or two shots can completely prevent for the duration of his life. However, I am anti seasonal flu vaccines. While a polio shot virtually prevents all chance of polio- this is not true of seasonal illnesses that change every year and often more than once in a single season.

I made my decision based on what I read about risks of the vaccinations, the death rates of the H1N1, and the efficacy of the shots on the CDC pages. If the CDC fails to give strong evidence that this flu shot is so effective- that's good enough reason for me to not get it.

In general it is much healthier to go through the seasonal colds and flus than to never get them, particularly when we're young, so that our immune systems get stronger.

I never make ill-informed decisions. You may not like the decisions I make, but I come by them as honestly and as intelligently as I assume you came by yours.

I'm comfortable with my choice and you are comfortable with yours. I don't see why it needs to be a fight. No one should be able to tell anyone else what to put in their own bodies.

I don't know - I just don't think it's ever as sim...

2009-11-03T13:07:21.439-05:00

I don't know - I just don't think it's ever as simple as black and white. I have had my older children fully immunized and my younger child will be immunized when he's 3. My doctor has okayed this after a proper discussion (aka, I didn't just decide on my own).

I have not gotten my children flu shots. I do not intend to get them flu shots. Yes the flu can be dangerous. Yes there have been a couple of rare cases where children probably died of H1N1 (waiting for full results personally). On the other hand, my own husband had a vaccine reaction when he was 12. His mother confirms it and his doctor said it was from the vaccine. He almost died. And the public health nurses always tell me that it is "impossible" that my husband had such a reaction. They weren't there, they couldn't know but they are so pro-vaccine that they don't acknowledge such adverse reactions it seems to me. That concerns me, as I'd rather hear that the benefits outweigh the risks, than be told nothing bad can possibly happen just get the needle already, ya know?

Anyway, for the H1N1, my children were exposed (school outbreak) before we had any access to the vaccine and as access to the vaccine is challenging and should be reserved for higher risk (according to my province anyway), I am not taking my boys.

Sing it, Sister. I linked you. The antivax movemen...

2009-11-02T17:02:06.870-05:00

Sing it, Sister. I linked you. The antivax movement really gets me.

I'm getting the shot. In fact, after this comment I have to phone my doctor's office to see if I can get in this week. The Poptart turns 6 months right when the vaccine becomes available to the general public here, so we're skipping her and hoping that any antibodies I develop will be passed on to her via breastmilk.

I couldn't agree with you more. I can't stand the ...

2009-11-02T16:46:06.443-05:00

I couldn't agree with you more. I can't stand the idiocy that is the antivax movement. Did you read the recent article in Wired?

I vaccinate. All of my children are up on their H...

2009-11-02T15:32:22.504-05:00

I vaccinate. All of my children are up on their Hib and the MMR and one even has her first tetnus shot. Did we do prevnar? No. Did we do chicken pox? No. Do we get the regular flu shot? No.

Am I getting this shot? I don't know. My family doctor can't give it to me. The city alternates between clinic line up panics and panics of "we're running out". For me, it would mean 4 trips spread over how many weeks? I can do the baby now, but not the school agers, and my husband and I don't qualify until when? a month from now?

So. What do I do?

I did a lot of research about it. And I have to ad...

2009-11-02T15:28:21.946-05:00

I did a lot of research about it. And I have to admit I am always a bit nerveous when it comes to vaccines, but I still do them. And this time was no exception. Mostly because of this little bundle inside me who can't protect himself. I want him to be safe and healthy. I trust the docs. Hell even my midwife got the vaccine.